A Conversation With Sam Kirk

You know how sometimes things just work out and you’re like...what’s the catch? And then there is no catch and you’re like...what is even happening here? This is how I felt when I reached out to local muralist Sam Kirk on Facebook, completely not expecting a response and then not only got a quick response, but got a response where she agreed to meet with me and talk about my project within the next week. I was completely blown away. I guess I had this idea that if you are a super talented artist who has murals all over the city that you will be very busy and inaccessible to those who might want to talk to you for a school project. This is not to say Sam isn’t busy, it is to say that she is a very busy and successful person and still agreed to meet with me. I was so completely humbled and grateful that she would be so generous with her time and energy.

Okay maybe I should back up a bit and explain why I am such a fan of Sam Kirk. On our Pilsen mural tour that my class went on earlier in the semester, the last stop on the tour was a mural painted by Sam Kirk and Sandra Antigiorgi that featured five women of color of varying ages, ethnicity, and races standing next to each other in unity. The title of the piece is Weaving Cultures, because the artists wanted to make a piece that showed different cultures coming together as one.

When I first laid eyes on this piece I was completely blown away by the beauty of the image. The detail on the women’s faces alone was incredible. The featured women were the embodiment of determination, stoicism, grace, and dignity. I could see memories of pain, trauma, and triumph in each woman’s eyes. I truly felt like these were real women looking past me into the distance.

Aside from the aesthetic beauty of the piece, what it stands for was another wave of admiration. The second woman from the left is a trans Latina, the only trans person (I am pretty sure) that is featured on any Chicago mural. The fact that the trans community was finally represented on a mural is huge. When I was doing my Pilsen exploration, I of course stopped by Weaving Cultures, and when I did I saw a group of people who was posing and taking pictures in front of the mural. I struck up conversation with one of them and found out that they were a part of the queer trans community in Chicago, and how important it was to them that there was a trans person featured on a mural at such a major intersection (16th and Blue Island). They felt a sense of pride and connection to the women in the mural and were so moved that someone who looked like them was finally being represented. I took a group picture of them all, said thank you for sharing their thoughts on the piece and left the interaction brimming with energy and inspiration. It is moments like these that really remind me that representation matters.

But, I digress. I was so honored to be able to have a conversation with Sam about this mural in addition to the rest of her work and Chicago murals in general. I’d like to share some parts of our conversation with you all here. Get pumped. I bolded certain phrases that stood out to me as particularly poignant.

I=Interviewer (that’s me), and P=participant (Sam)

I: Can you talk about who you are, your background, and the work you do?

P: Sure, so I am a local Chicago artist, based in Chicago, I have a second studio in Brooklyn. Born and raised on the south side of Chicago, I kind of grew up all over the south side. I come from a working class family, so we bounced around a lot, which is kind of important and beneficial to the career that I am in today because a lot of my work talks about that. It’s really focused on community and culture. I am multiracial and that was interesting because Chicago is a very segregated city. So I grew up with a mother that’s Mexican and Puerto-Rican, but is a darker complexion. And then my father is German and Irish. So we moved around a lot not just because we were working class and wanted to go where the rent was good but because we wanted to go somewhere where it was somewhat comfortable for both of my parents, which seemed really difficult and I talk about that in my work. So there is a lot of layering of culture and identity and understanding that but then also, I am queer as well, so that’s another layer to add to it as well. So my work just kind of goes through what that journey has been like for myself, for people that I meet, stories that I’ve heard from friends, or people that I’ve met in my travels.

I: So more specifically about the Weaving Cultures mural, what was your motivation and inspiration to paint it?

P: Well I was approached by the city to produce the piece. They asked me to restore the Galeria del Barrio mural by Aurelio Diaz and before they asked me to restore that they had asked me to create a female version of that wall to have on the opposite side. So I said, yes I will but with most things in Chicago, like when you’re in a neighborhood that has a demographic of a certain quantity they want you to celebrate that ethnicity, and I told them, I’ll do it as long as I can do it from a multicultural perspective. Which would be different from Aurelio Diaz’s because his is about one man of indigenous Mexican decent going through a series of emotions. Mine would be more of a celebration of women of different cultures. Still emotional, still powerful, and still showing the range of emotions but just different in the story line. And they agreed to that, thank God. (Laughter). And the goal for it ended up being, one, to showcase this piece that celebrated women of different cultures, because I don’t think that we see that enough in Chicago, and two to celebrate women who are underrepresented. So a lot of my work comes from my current experiences or what is currently going on in the world. And with what happened in Orlando, with the nightclub shooting, for the LGBTQ community, and in turn that being a Muslim man who did it, and the constant struggle and war against Muslims in this country, I felt I needed to put a woman of Muslim representation in the piece and also, being queer, I wanted to make sure I put somebody who was transgender in the piece. I chose a transgender Latina because one, I’m Latina, but two, more so because transgender women of color are the most discriminated against, murdered, and harassed on a daily basis. Being in a largely Latino community, that was the person I chose to represent. I don’t think people expected it, and I did that because I think it’s something that we need to talk about. And then the others were, obviously African-American women are always underrepresented. And we also wanted to make sure we didn’t just showcase women in their youth, but also women that were of different age ranges, so that it spoke to our ancestors and our roots and people that have come before us.

I: So my project is in part about how mural tell stories, so can you say a little bit about what story or what message you intended for the mural to share?

P: So for that mural the intention was to get people to either start talking about the future of our city and how we want the future of our city to look like. Mostly to encourage people to unite more, and to break down some of the boundaries that we have in our city. That mural being directly on 16th and Blue Island, I thought it was a huge opportunity too because for years that viaduct has separated an African-American community and a Latino community. And in Chicago, the break up of neighborhoods is like that, it’s either a major street or a train that runs through and separates one culture from another. It’s like, we are so close to each other, and mentally so far away, so what do I need to do to get people to stand next to each other and unite, and when we unite we are stronger. Especially that wall being all women of color. There is still the term minority, but if we are all grouped together, we are not a minority, you know? So, it’s just trying to get people to have a dialogue and to shift their perspective of what the future should be.

I: Cool. Did you get any response from the Pilsen community?

P: We got a ton of response from the Pilsen community, mostly as we were painting. A lot of people came out and congratulated us and thanked us for doing the work. A lot of people that don’t live in the neighborhood also thanked us for it. And then we got feedback from random people in their vehicles, asking where the white woman was on the wall.

I: Ummm…everywhere else?

P: Exactly! Oh my god I am so glad to hear you say that! Yes! That is exactly it. They’re everywhere, and that’s why they’re not on this wall right now. And that was part of the challenge too, in creating a piece that is only 40 feet long. We wanted to also represent Asian women, there are all these other women that are underrepresented. I mean women in general are always underrepresented but as artists we have to eat too so we had to stick with what was in our budget. But we got mostly positive feedback. And then I think you always get some haters, you know, but that’s art.

I: So, what value do you think a mural adds to a community?

P: Well aside from adding beauty, they also provide people who don’t go to art institutions the opportunity to see art. It also provides the opportunity, if it’s a piece that’s similar to the kind of murals that I do at least, it gives the opportunity to open up conversation and talk about topics that either are already going on in a community that no body is really talking about or gets people to open their minds in a different way. And I think art in general has the ability to do that, and when you put it publically, it’s kind of big and in your face. So like with this piece, with putting a transgender Latina on the wall, my hope is for the people that are against homosexuality or queers, it will subconsciously sit in the back of their head, because they’re going to have to see it every day. They’re going to have to think about it. And that message continues to kind of hit them in a subconscious way. And I think that affects them. I think it also helps to bring joy and a lot of inspiration and happiness to the community. I mean otherwise it’s all just brick walls. Which is fine, but I mean 16th street was very ugly before the murals started happening. I’m sure the people that lived there weren’t very happy about their view.

I: That’s so cool. I love that accessibility component. What is your opinions of murals in Chicago in general?

P: One, I don’t think Chicago has enough murals. But two, I think we just started to get to a point where they are being curated better. I think in the past a lot of people have just looked at it as “you want to put a mural up? Okay go ahead” and it’s just been this random mural installation piece. And nothing really goes with each other. But now with the Wabash Arts Corridor happening and also with 16th street recently starting to flow a little bit better, I think they’re starting to treat it like a gallery space that just happens to be in the street. I hope they continue to go in that direction because if you just put murals up for the hell of it and you don’t look at it as like how it’s gonna influence the community or affect the community, then it’s not necessarily a positive thing. So I think we are getting there, we are behind for sure. I wish there was more funding for it. I think we think about mural work as a summer thing and it’s definitely not just a summer thing. A lot of mural work can be started in the winter and then installed in the spring. But we just have to think about it differently, so hopefully it will change.

I: I was also wondering about the relationship between murals and the community that they’re in. So in Pilsen there are a lot of murals done by community members who are trying to almost preserve their history and important figures. Can you comment on the relationship between the community and the murals, like what that looks like, and if murals reflect the community or not?

P: Well I think murals absolutely reflect the community and I think for that reason it's important for the city and different organizations to document them. Because I think if we keep them up and actually restore them then it actually treats them like art. You know museums have these archives and records. Or artists even have their own archives that show what their work looked like when they first started all the way up to what it looks like in the present. And I think with murals we have the opportunity to show how a community has changed. So if you keep track of it and document it correctly you can say “oh wow these murals that were done in the 70s reflected this type of interest and this type of community, and in the 90s it changed to this”. And you actually get to see where people’s minds were and what the community was about from the murals, which I think is really cool. But yeah I think they totally related to the neighborhood, not all of them, but most. Most murals done in Pilsen are done by community members but there are also some that aren’t.

I: So you would say the location of murals is really important?

P: Oh yeah. Especially if you think about 16th street, there’s parks, there’s homes, there’s schools, there’s a church. There are so many things that run along this street. So what is out there ends up impacting a lot of different minds and gets viewed by lots of different people. So yeah I think it should be curated in like the seletion of where it goes.

I: So there are organizations that will reach out to muralists and ask “can you put this here” or is it more like “I want to put this mural here, can I get funding?”

P: It actually goes both ways. So I have reached out to people directly—organizations or businesses that happen to have…like I initiated this one. There’s never been a mural here and I’m like I think we should put it here. So you can make it work in that way. But there’s also organizations like the Chicago Public Art Group, Yollocalli—which is part of the Mexican Fine Arts Museum—and then there’s After School Matters that does some programs in the summer, and then there’s the city. So all of those different places have different programs, and for the organizations those are usually specific and they’re like we have this site and some of the organizations pick artists based on what they want to put there, they already have an idea in mind. And then some don’t. And so it varies.

I: Interesting. Do you have a common theme that runs through your murals or are they all kind of different?

P: The thing that runs through them all the time is it’s a celebration or discussion about culture. They change sometimes in the things that they relate to around social justice. But usually social justice or things that are impacting working class people are the things that come up in my murals, just because that’s kind of what comes up in my work in general.

I: So kind of putting your identity in line with your work?

P: Yeah. And like, I’ve lived in Pilsen, I’ve lived in Bridgeport, I live in Little Village now. So I know what it’s like to be a part of these communities and what the people feel like and what they think. So it usually reflects on that.

I: So after the mural is created, what happens? Do you just kind of leave it there or are there community conversations about it?

P: It depends on the piece. For this last piece we had an unveiling and we got a ton of press and because of what the mural was about and the people and the women that were represented in it, we had to get press. So we made sure that we got out and talked to media outlets. And I’m doing a piece at UIC where this will be discussed as well. And the content in it is so strong that there should be conversations about it, because I mean we had media outlets come out and photograph it and we didn’t go hard with it because we had over 15,000 shares within like the first week we posted it, which is unreal. And that was only from two or three media outlets. So we were like alright we’ll just let it circulate for a bit. But it depends on what it is. I have done other murals where it’s just like, okay well just show it off online and social media but I think it depends on the content.

I: Is there specific content that people pick up on more than others?

P: Well when it’s something like what we did recently where it’s not something that is commonly seen, then they pick up on it more. Because I think people are used to seeing and are very comfortable seeing murals that celebrate their own culture so if I was going to do a mural that’s like featuring all these Mexican women and I’m gonna put all this stuff about Mexican culture because Pilsen is mostly Mexican, or was, whatever, I’m gonna do that and people would appreciate it, but it’s so common that it would be like “awesome thank you for keeping it real in our neighborhood” but when you’re a Mexican artist and you go out and you not only recognize your own identity but also put in other cultures, people are like “what do you mean? Why isn’t it all Mexicans?” Then they’re like well why did you do that. And then that’s when it starts to raise the questions, which is what I like. I feel like my job, as an artist, is to provoke people to think differently. And that’s what my goal is with my murals.”

Alright y’all. If you’re not a Sam Kirk fanatic like I am after reading that, then I really don’t know what to say. She touches on so many interesting points throughout the interview. Like how murals offer a certain type of accessibility that other art forms don't have in that they provide the opportunity to see artwork to those who might not be able to go to art galleries. She stressed how the goal of her murals is to promote a message of unity among different ethnic "minorities" as well as to provide representation to those in society who are constantly underrepresented or misrepresented, like women (particularly women of color), LGBTQ+ folks and Muslims. I love it when she says that her job as an artist is to "provoke people to think differently" and open up important conversations that aren't happening in communities.

Sam's work, and this mural in particular, embodies all that I love about murals. I believe murals are at their best when they are providing high quality artwork to the public that reflects community identity and promotes messages of social justice. This conversation was such an amazing way to start off this exploration of Chicago neighborhoods through murals. More exciting conversations with Chicago muralists to come!